I don’t go to the local mall very often.
But when I need something that’s only sold at one of those stores there, I make a trip to the mall. And there’s something that happens almost every time.
Since the store I need to visit is usually at the other end, I have to walk down the main aisle. As I make my way through the mall, there are stores on my left and right of course. But there are also now the kiosks in the middle, from one end of the mall to the other. These set-ups are cheaper than having a full retail walk-in store.
And every time I’m walking, there’s a perfume dealer. And there will be one or two salespeople trying to flag people down and check out a free sample of some kind of perfume and get you to buy some. They’re usually going after the female shoppers and you can see that women try to walk by and not make eye contact. No one wants to be approached by a sales person.
Whenever I see someone like that, I always think, “Wow, that has to be the worst job in the world. Nothing but rejection for 40 hours a week.”
But there are people who do that same kind of thing – and they aren’t in the mall. In fact, they aren’t even getting paid. It’s the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
I see them all the time, with their bookshelf and their literature, set up on street corners, in a public park, on the side of a bike or walking trail. Just standing there trying to get someone to stop and talk to them, so they can hopefully recruit them into joining. Some of them still go out knocking on doors even.
Stephan was one of those people. But today you’ll hear how he finally was able to get away from that group, and what he lost – and gained – as a result of that decision.
Also – Stephan is part of the team that creates a podcast that I subscribe to, and we’ll talk about that toward the end of our conversation.
If you’d like to contact Stephan, his email is: StephanTheBlackSheep@gmail.com
Check out the Multispective podcast at Multispective.org.
Full show notes and pictures for this episode are here:
https://WhatWasThatLike.com/187
Graphics for this episode by Bob Bretz. Transcription was done by James Lai.
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Episode transcript (download transcript PDF):
I don’t go to the local mall very often.
But when I need something that’s only sold at one of those stores there, I make a trip to the mall. And there’s something that happens almost every time.
Since the store I need to visit is usually at the other end, I have to walk down the main aisle. As I make my way through the mall, there are stores on my left and right of course. But there are also now the kiosks in the middle, from one end of the mall to the other. These set-ups are cheaper than having a full retail walk-in store.
And every time I’m walking, there’s a perfume dealer. And there will be one or two salespeople trying to flag people down and check out a free sample of some kind of perfume and get you to buy some. They’re usually going after the female shoppers and you can see that women try to walk by and not make eye contact. No one wants to be approached by a sales person.
Whenever I see someone like that, I always think, “Wow, that has to be the worst job in the world. Nothing but rejection for 40 hours a week.”
But there are people who do that same kind of thing – and they aren’t in the mall. In fact, they aren’t even getting paid. It’s the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
I see them all the time, with their bookshelf and their literature, set up on street corners, in a public park, on the side of a bike or walking trail. Just standing there trying to get someone to stop and talk to them, so they can hopefully recruit them into joining. Some of them still go out knocking on doors even.
Stephan was one of those people. But today you’ll hear how he finally was able to get away from that group, and what he lost – and gained – as a result of that decision.
Also – Stephan is part of the team that creates a podcast that I subscribe to, and we’ll talk about that toward the end of our conversation.
Scott
You were in Jehovah’s Witnesses from a very young age. Where did you grow up?
Stephan
I was born and raised in Germany in the Eastern part in the late eighties. I moved around a little bit with my parents inside Germany, so I don’t really have a hometown anymore – if anybody asked me that question.
Scott
And now you are in–
Stephan
Bangkok, in Thailand
Scott
You really get all over the place.
Stephan
Yeah. I’ve even lived in Shanghai before, for almost seven years. So I think Asia is my new hometown.
Scott
When you were a child, was your whole family already in Jehovah’s Witnesses?
Stephan
When I was a child, my mom started studying their literature and studying their beliefs. My dad was never a big fan of it. He never joined. But later on, my mom got baptized and she joined the group officially. My parents got divorced. My mom found a new husband and he is also in the group.
Scott
When you were a child – I know they’ve got all kinds of rules – did you feel different from your friends because of the rules you had to follow that didn’t really apply to them?
Stephan
Yeah, of course. I think the most obvious times were, during Christmas, other children, my friends in school would get presents and I would get nothing. Or when it’s someone’s birthday, for example, my birthday was coming up, people were congratulating me, but I was awkwardly, like, “Yeah, thank you,” If they don’t know that I don’t celebrate this. And also, of course, no presents. My parents used to argue with me about the presents. They said, “You don’t need to have a birthday or Christmas coming up. We can give you presents all over the year,” which, as a child, is more or less acceptable. But still, it’s not nice to feel like an outsider, especially in the class.
Scott
Yeah. Everybody else has that one special day, whether it’s a holiday or their own birthday. You didn’t get that. Were you even allowed to have friends who were not Witnesses?
Stephan
That’s tricky. Define allowed.
Scott
Okay. Well, yeah. What does that mean?
Stephan
So usually the beliefs or the rules– let’s say, the soft rules of Jehovah’s Witnesses is you’re not supposed to have many contact points outside of the group. You should limit your people, your acquaintances, your friends to people inside the group. Of course, when I was a child, I had to go to school, so I tried to make some friends. But my parents were a little bit lenient. I would say they allowed me to hang out with a few vetted people. They knew they wouldn’t bring any bad influence on me or any bad thoughts or any bad, I don’t know, situations. That was okay. But, for the majority of time, I didn’t have many friends in school.
Scott
Would you say – and I think this is true for a lot of religions – you didn’t really choose Jehovah’s Witnesses? You were kind of born into it, which is what happens to a lot of people. The religion that they have is the one that their family had. Is that kind of the same thing with you?
Stephan
That is true up until a certain point when I consciously decided to join the group myself.
Scott
Okay. And how old were you then?
Stephan
I think I was around 19 or 20. I think 19.
Scott
But at that time, you’d had 19 years of indoctrination and that was your normal, right?
Stephan
Yes. Exactly.
Scott
Is Jehovah’s Witnesses a cult?
Stephan
They would say, “Of course, no.” But actually, I prepared the definition here. According to the dictionary, a religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader. So I would say some of these parts apply, some of them don’t. So it’s a very tricky question, actually.
Scott
So what part of that does not apply to Jehovah’s Witnesses?
Stephan
I would say extremist. They’re not extremists in that sense. They have their beliefs and they really do believe that this is true – what they’re thinking, what they’re drawing from the Bible – but I wouldn’t call it extremist. Also, I wouldn’t say that people are living in an unconventional manner – like somewhere out there in the barn with a group in a commune or something like that. It’s not like this. People have their normal lives. They’re just secluded from the rest of the world, somehow.
Scott
Some would look at that as unconventional. I guess it’s a gray area, I suppose.
Stephan
I think so.
Scott
But it’s also unconventional to– if you’re in an accident and you could die and you refuse to take a blood transfusion, that would be kind of unconventional. I would think too.
Stephan
That’s definitely unconventional, yeah. But here comes the beliefs again. So what the Bible says is definitely more valued than what any human doctor says.
Scott
And they use the Christian Bible, right? The same book?
Stephan
They have a different translation but the core is the same, I think, yeah.
Scott
Yeah, because Jehovah’s Witnesses is considered a part of the Christian religion. Is that correct?
Stephan
Yes.
Scott
Okay.
Stephan
Yes. They believe in God, similar to other Christian religions, and they believe in Jesus as God’s Son and then the Holy Spirit. But unlike other Christians, I think Catholics think that it’s one person, three different expressions of one person or one entity, but the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that it’s actually three different entities.
Scott
Yeah, the concept of the Trinity is kind of confusing, no matter what religion we’re talking about. And we should mention too, you have been out of Jehovah’s Witnesses for how long?
Stephan
8-9 years now.
Scott
And I know, sometimes, various theologies can change over time. So what you’re talking about today is what you experienced and maybe some of this has changed a little bit. Do you know of anything that has changed in that time?
Stephan
No, I don’t know anything. But honestly, I don’t follow anymore what they’re doing. I’m happy that, during my everyday life, I’m not in contact with this anymore.
Scott
Enjoying being away from that, huh?
Stephan
Exactly, yeah.
Scott
What is the core theology?
Stephan
The core theology… There is one God, there is one son of God, and there will be an end of the world they call Armageddon. And, after this, only the people who believe the beliefs of Jehovah’s witnesses will survive. The rest will die and the survivors will live in some kind of paradise where they will be immortal and be in peace forever.
Scott
And that’s here on earth, right?
Stephan
Yes. Correct, yeah.
Scott
Immortal on earth. I’m not sure I’d even want to live forever here on the earth.
Stephan
Well, imagine you live in a paradise, right? It’s not like the environment is destroyed as we see today, right? Everything’s green and perfectly in harmony with nature. Even animals wouldn’t be any threat to children or to other humans anymore in general. So you would basically live in perfect harmony with all the living beings and creatures on this planet. Sounds actually not too bad.
Scott
That does sound kind of nice. I could have a pet elephant if I wanted to.
Stephan
You could. Yeah, you could. Or crocodile. Why not?
Scott
All right. I’m going to look into this. That sounds interesting. And they believe in heaven, right? Because some people don’t stay on earth forever. They go to heaven.
Stephan
Yes, that’s right.
Scott
How do you determine who goes there?
Stephan
Well, we don’t. We humans don’t. Only God can determine that. But I know what you’re referring to. You’re referring to those 144,000. That’s like an elite group within the followers of Jehovah’s Witnesses and they believe that, after they die, they go to heaven immediately. They don’t wait until the end of this world to be resurrected or somehow. They go immediately after they die.
Scott
But only 144,000. So some of them are already there.
Stephan
Supposedly, yes. Supposedly.
Scott
All right. Yeah. I know the questions I ask here are all hypotheticals anyway.
Stephan
I don’t have a direct line up there.
Scott
I looked it up and there are currently 8 million Jehovah’s Witnesses people worldwide. Only 144,000 are going to live in heaven eternally. Even that number is less than 2%. Theoretically, since– this religion has been around for how long? A hundred years?
Stephan
Late 18th and 19th century.
Scott
Even if it’s just today, that’s less than 2%. So it’s even going to be a smaller percentage than that. So it seems like the people now don’t have much hope that they’re going to be one of those that get to go to heaven.
Stephan
So the duty of the people in heaven is like a government – you can imagine like this. Somebody has to reign over the people living on earth in this earthly paradise, and that will be the 144,000 people together with Jesus and God, obviously.
Scott
So in order to live in heaven eternally or to be immortal here on earth, you have to, number one, join the Jehovah’s Witnesses,
Stephan
Absolutely.
Scott
And number two, you’ve got to follow the rules.
Stephan
Right.
Scott
It seems like, from what we know of this group, the main rule is to convert others.
Stephan
Correct, yeah.
Scott
Did you have to do that? Or what was your experience with that?
Stephan
Yeah. Of course, everybody has to do that. This is actually a criteria. Without doing that, you cannot even be baptized, you cannot even join the group. Impossible. They won’t allow you because the key element is to make more followers, to make more disciples, and everybody is supposed to do that.
Scott
And how do they structure that? How do they know that you went out on Saturday afternoon and knocked on 50 doors?
Stephan
You have to report. That’s the thing. At the time when I was in there – I’m not sure if it’s the same still today, so take it with a grain of salt – we had to file monthly reports for each person and we had to write down how many hours we’ve been out, how many brochures, how many books we distributed, and how many people we revisited, for example.
Scott
When we see people out doing this, they’re always a pair. If it’s two men, they’re usually wearing a white shirt and they’re each riding a bike. Is that kind of a requirement? That’s just what I see most often.
Stephan
Well, there’s a little bit of personal taste involved there as well, but most of the people would probably wear a suit and a tie. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a white shirt and it doesn’t have to be a bike. You can also drive a car or go by bus, whatever you prefer. But, the dress code is formal. That’s for sure.
Scott
You also have to give them money, right?
Stephan
You don’t have to. It’s voluntary. But it is heavily encouraged that you give.
Scott
Cause how else are they going to stay in business? They’ve got to pay for stuff.
Stephan
Exactly. I think, in the very early days, they sold literature and books for a small amount of money to people but, nowadays, they don’t do this anymore. They solely rely on donations.
Scott
It’s bad enough trying to get somebody to open the door and even take that magazine, the watchtower, but much less trying to sell it to them… Who would buy one of those?
Stephan
People who have too much money, I guess.
Scott
Wow. Okay. Some of the restrictions– we’ve talked about no blood transfusions, no celebrating holidays or birthdays. Is there anything else that kind of stood out to you?
Stephan
Well, I guess your friend circle is very restricted. Of course, this doesn’t only apply to friends. This also applies to dating. So as a young guy like me in my late 10s, early 20s, I was only limited to girls inside the group, which wasn’t very satisfying and not many to choose from, as you can imagine. So it’s quite frustrating.
Scott
What happens if you don’t follow their rules?
Stephan
There are different levels of what could happen to you. First of all, other members don’t want to hang out with you anymore, so it makes you a little bit lonely. Even in the group of loners, you become the loner inside the group of the loners, which is basically the worst. Then the next level is, if you do something serious like, for example, smoking or I don’t know, you have a girlfriend and you move in with her, for example, then you can get disfellowed – basically they remove you from the group if you don’t repent. There’s always the option to have a talk with the elders – basically the leaders of the local congregation – and they can decide upon your faith. If you make the impression on them that you repent and then you break up with your girlfriend and you don’t smoke anymore and you don’t take any drugs and anything, you basically have a clean slate again, they would allow you to remain inside. But if you keep continuing these things that are outlawed, then they will remove you from the group because, in their argument, it will be protecting the rest of the group from bad influence.
Scott
Obviously, there’s no way they can keep track of all of the things that people are doing all the time, but they encourage members to watch each other.
Stephan
Yeah. That’s true.
Scott
How did that work?
Stephan
I heard the term collective conscience. So, basically everybody is entitled to watch out what’s happening around them and, if they see anything suspicious or shady going on, to report it because this is the way they keep the group clean.
Scott
Man, so you couldn’t trust anyone then?
Stephan
Well, after a while, you know your people, but you also know who not to trust. That’s for sure.
Scott
Okay. So there could be a couple of people that agree, “Hey, we’re going to break this rule and we’ll both do it, but we won’t say anything.”
Stephan
Exactly like this, yeah. So Friday night, there’s a service first and then you go out clubbing and have a little bit too many drinks but, the next day, nobody says anything. So it basically never happened.
Scott
Did you ever observe someone else doing something that you had to report?
Stephan
Oh yeah, I did and I’m not proud of that.
Scott
What was that? What happened?
Stephan
Yeah. So that was– let me guess how old was I – probably 15 or something. I heard coincidentally that one of the girls in our group had a boyfriend who was not inside the group and that they slept together. So I basically forced her to report herself to the elders or I would do it. And even up until today, I regret that because I was such a snitch.
Scott
What if you don’t? Now, you could get in trouble if you knew it and you didn’t report it, right?
Stephan
That’s exactly the thing, right? So either I get in trouble or I get somebody else in trouble. So what do I choose? Nowadays, Stephan would say, “Well, just shut up and ignore it. Let people live and let live.” But at the time I was so brainwashed and I was so into the thought that it’s the right thing to do.
Scott
That’s if everybody just adopted that attitude, “Just let other people live.” If you got disfellowshipped or shunned– do they mean the same thing?
Stephan
I think so, yeah.
Scott
So you lose your friends because your whole community is all part of this group. So you would lose all of those – all of your friends. What about family?
Stephan
Same. If you get disfellowshipped, then everybody inside the group is supposed not to have any contact with you anymore. That also applies to family. So I haven’t talked to my parents in probably half a year.
Scott
But you’ve been out longer than that though. Have they been allowed to contact you to some degree or they do that, like, sneakingly?
Stephan
It’s a soft rule. Nowadays, it’s a softer rule. At the time, it was more strict. I realized this just now. Nowadays, it’s not that strict anymore, it seems. Every once in a while, we text, “Hey, are you still alive? Hey, good to hear from you.” Something like this. But I don’t think anything beyond that.
Scott
So there’s no relationship there.
Stephan
Not anymore, no.
Scott
That is so sad.
Stephan
It is. But I also understand where this comes from. It’s because they want to control the people, they want to control and convince people to stay inside the group because, otherwise, you would basically have to restart your life from zero if you leave. Because what happens is you have no friends and you have no family members anymore. So you’re basically all by yourself. Actually, even somewhere in the Bible, it says to encourage the people to change their lifestyle and come back and join back to the group.
Scott
Did you ever deliberately break any of the main rules?
Stephan
Yeah, I think drinking and smoking.
Scott
Okay. But you feel safe talking about it now, obviously.
Stephan
Yeah. I mean, I think everybody does it at some point. You just have to repent and then you’re good to go. Some people repent more than once.
Scott
You’re hurting your chances of living in paradise forever.
Stephan
And I’m going to hell. This ship sailed a long time ago. Nah, I don’t believe in hell.
Scott
It seems like the whole thing– people are stuck with following all these rules but the fundamental incentive is just fear. Would you say that’s accurate?
Stephan
It’s carrot and stick. Not only fear, it’s also carrot and stick. Because you have that carrot that dangling in front of your nose, and then you go to paradise in a million years, maybe, if it even happens. The perspective or the anticipation of being able to live in a paradise forever, immortal, is probably good enough for some people to give up their entire lives and their entire personalities.
Scott
If you were an active Jehovah’s witness, what would you be seen doing each day of the week?
Stephan
Okay. So we already had to go from door to door. That will usually happen on Saturday mornings for me, at least. Of course, you can go whenever you want but there were regular meetings on Saturday mornings, which I have to add. It’s not convenient if you went out drinking the night before. You would go for two hours. Sometimes, what I did is I just sat in the car trying to survive somehow and just didn’t go out at all, but that’s another topic. The rest of the week was heavily impacted by the job being within schedules. So for example, Tuesday evenings, there was a meeting. Friday evening, there was another meeting. Sunday morning, another meeting/service. Later on, shortly before I left, I think they abandoned the one on Tuesday. So it was only Friday and Sunday services. But still, whenever you have spare time, whenever you can arrange it, you are supposed to preach and try to convert other people.
Scott
I guess, they figured if you were at the Friday night service, then it was safe to assume that you were okay to go out Saturday morning and walk around the neighborhood and knock on doors.
Stephan
You could say that. But the thing is the service was from 7 PM to maybe 8.30, around that.
Scott
Oh, you’ve got done early.
Stephan
Enough time to go crazy after that.
Scott
Well, they got to figure that out. They need to have the service go till midnight or something.
Stephan
Oh, no, please. Don’t give them the idea.
Scott
And then you had homework. What was the homework like?
Stephan
Yeah, of course. For all these services, you have to prepare. For the Fridays and the Sunday services, there were different literatures to be prepared. Ideally, you read those during one of the other evenings. So what happened was my parents decided on Saturday afternoon that they would prepare for the Sunday service. So we would sit around and just read the literature, try to understand what is basically same-same but different every single time, and try to prepare some answers because the service would look like this… somebody would talk about the material on stage and then would ask the questions that are printed in the literature and people would raise their hands and try to answer the questions that are basically written in the magazine with their own words.
Scott
Now, I got to go back to what you said earlier. You’re not supposed to have a girlfriend that’s outside the group. But when you were young, your mom joined Jehovah’s Witnesses, but your dad did not. So did the church say that she was supposed to divorce him then? Or how did that affect their relationship? Obviously, they were eventually divorced, but was that why?
Stephan
It was not related. No, that was not related. I only remember parts of it. I hope I can piece this together. When I was a baby, my parents were already married but my mom got in contact with Jehovah’s Witnesses and she was interested to continue this path, but my dad was not. But since marriage is like a holy sacrament, I would say, of course, they wouldn’t force them to divorce. My mom was supposed to respect my dad and my dad was supposed to do nothing, which he did. So he was fine. He was tolerant. He didn’t like it probably from what I know, but he accepted it, and my mom tried to raise me within the group.
Scott
It’s interesting. The Jehovah’s Witnesses call themselves a Christian denomination but if you went to any person who’s a Baptist or a Catholic, for example, they would say, “No way, they aren’t Christians.” But they use the same Bible, just a different translation. What’s the name of the translation?
Stephan
New World Translation. New World as in Paradise.
Scott
I hadn’t heard of that one. That’s not a translation that most Christian religions would use.
Stephan
It’s their own translation. According to Jehovah’s Witnesses, this is the most accurate translation you can get your hands on, of course.
Scott
What happened that made you first start to think, “Maybe I don’t belong in this club”?
Stephan
I’m the kind of person who doesn’t like standstill. I need development. I need something new. I need to have a new challenge, whatever. But the thing is you cannot do much inside. The only thing that you can do is go and try to convert people. If you have many hours in your monthly report, maybe somebody will look at you and say, “Hey, look at this guy. He’s doing a good job. Let’s promote him.” Inside the group, there are different levels you can call, like, a career path, and the highest one is basically an elder controlling or overseeing the local congregation. That would be the way to go. There are some other career paths you can take but there’s not much to do. But the thing is, in my case, I wanted to do something. I wanted to develop myself further but, inside, there was not much to do because I hated going out and knocking on strangers’ doors. So I was thinking, “Maybe I should try my luck outside. Maybe I should go study and learn an actual job and have an actual career.” Then, sooner or later, I realized that outside in the real world, I want to say there are many more opportunities than inside.
Scott
How old were you when you realized that?
Stephan
Probably 25.
Scott
But didn’t you already have a job or any kind of a career at that point? What were you doing?
Stephan
I did. I studied mechanical engineering and then I worked in the automotive industry as an engineer – something normal – but I can’t even say that there was a single incident that made me realize I don’t want to be in the group anymore. It’s just a development, a transition – took a while.
Scott
It’s a process.
Stephan
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Scott
I mean, you’re leaving something that you’ve known your whole life.
Stephan
Exactly. It’s not easy.
Scott
Probably kind of scary.
Stephan
Absolutely, yeah. Especially if you know the consequences. You’re basically going to start your life from zero.
Scott
So what was the actual process for leaving? What was the first thing you did?
Stephan
Simple. Write a letter, put it in the mailbox, and then never talk to those people again. That’s the easiest part.
Scott
But that’s after you’ve gone through the whole thought process that “Okay, I definitely want to leave.” But sometimes that process can probably take years.
Stephan
Yeah, that took years. I also have to thank my wife at the time – I used to be married before. We talked about this often a lot – leaving or staying. If we stay, what are we going to do? If we leave, how are we going to start over again? And, at some point – I don’t even know who took the lead there – we were both under the impression that it would be better to leave no matter the consequences. So we both wrote letters and signed them. “Hello, this is my name. I don’t want to be in there anymore. Don’t contact me. I’m gone. Bye bye forever.”
Scott
Not even a 2-week notice, not even that. Did anybody contact you saying, “Hey, wait a second. Let’s talk about this.”? They try to get you to stay in?
Stephan
Normally, they would do that, yeah. But if you make it very clear in your letter that you don’t want to be contacted, there’s no room for negotiation anymore. Then, the last messages I received – I still have screenshots of those messages actually – are like, “Okay, sad to see you go. Wish you all the best. You can always come back if you feel like it.” I’m like, “Thank you, but nope.”
Scott
And you were at that time, 27. Did you immediately lose all those friends and your family?
Stephan
Yeah, exactly.
Scott
How did your life change at that point? For the good or the bad?
Stephan
Well, I think, for the bad – already mentioned this – you lose everybody that you know but, on the other hand, I’m quite outgoing. So for me, it’s relatively easy to make new connections. I built a new friend circle, small but reliable. And at that time, there was also the time when I was supposed to leave Germany for a new job opportunity in China. So basically, I didn’t lose too much anyway, luckily.
Scott
So the transition for you may have been a little bit easier than it is for some other people.
Stephan
Exactly. I had to build a new friend circle anyway. It doesn’t really matter if I do this in Germany or in China later on. Roughly, at the same time. I also got divorced from my ex-wife. So, basically, I cut three different strings of my life and then started new.
Scott
That’s some major life events, especially when they all happen at the same time.
Stephan
Yeah. Within 2-3 years.
Scott
So at that point, did you just start celebrating birthdays and holidays? What kind of adjustments did you make?
Stephan
That’s funny. The only thing that I actually celebrate now is my birthday. I don’t have any connection, any feeling about Christmas or Easter or any of these things, because I’ve never experienced these festivals in my life, but birthdays are usually a big party with my friends. That is an escalation.
Scott
Obviously, Christmas and Easter are religious holidays, so that makes sense. But what about something like Halloween?
Stephan
Halloween? Absolutely, yeah. I usually dress up. That’s something that I really enjoy nowadays. I don’t know why but it’s fun. Once a year, I come up with some insane costume idea and then go out to some party and then compete with other like-minded crazy people.
Scott
Yeah. Because, as a kid, you couldn’t do that, right? You couldn’t dress up. You couldn’t go around collecting candy or anything like all the other kids did.
Stephan
Nowadays, I don’t collect candy, I collect drinks, but that’s almost similar.
Scott
You’ve turned into quite a heathen here, it sounds like.
Stephan
Yes, you can say that.
Scott
And it’s almost like you’re proud of that.
Stephan
All 180 degrees change. It’s not easy, but I made it.
Scott
What’s your favorite thing you do now that you couldn’t do before?
Stephan
I don’t have to think about what my fellow Witnesses think if I did this or that. If you always have to consider other people’s conscience – if you drink too much, if you go out too late, or if you don’t bring in your monthly hours that you have to report – then you constantly have a bad conscience and you feel bad. This is one thing that is really – I don’t even know how to say it – so freeing. I feel so free. I can only do what I want to do and I don’t have to justify my actions towards anyone. This is amazing.
Scott
To constantly think, “Wow, I’m not such a bad person.”
Stephan
Yeah. Self-acceptance comes first.
Scott
I think it was Mark Twain that said, “It’s easier to trick someone into joining a cult than it is to convince them they’re already in one.” Is there some way to get people to recognize that they’re in a cult or do they even care if they are?
Stephan
I would say it’s very difficult, especially if someone has been brainwashed for years, like me at the time. It’s very difficult to open people’s eyes to the reality that they’re being controlled and maybe even a little bit exploited for their money and for their time. But you can also argue that people get something from it, right? You get something out of it. You get companionship. It’s conditional, but you have it. So if you have no other friends and no other opportunities to meet with people or to support each other, then you get this. You just have to stick to the rules. So you get companionship, you get some kind of feeling of belonging, I would say, and you get an organized life. If you just follow their schedule, you don’t have to think too much.
Scott
That’s the price you pay for because that’s one thing that any religion pretty much does pretty well is the idea of community. You feel like you’re part of something. If you’re in the hospital, people will set up a food drive and help you out and stuff like that. So, it’s difficult to get away from that.
Stephan
What my family experienced more than once is, when we moved from one place to the other, there would always be people to help us pack everything into the truck and then help us unpack again even though we hadn’t seen these people ever in our lives before. But they would be there because we belong to the same.
Scott
Yeah. When you say that, it makes me think of the Amish people. If somebody’s barn burns down, the next day, the whole town is there to build them a new barn that same day even though they don’t even know all those people personally.
Stephan
That’s right, yeah. The companionship is really strong inside the group.
Scott
How can you support someone who’s trying to leave or maybe just starting to question or doubt?
Stephan
Me personally? Or generally speaking?
Scott
Generally speaking. If someone’s listening to this and they know someone who’s a Witness but they’re starting to have questions and maybe think, “This might not be where I should be,” what should someone do to– or can you do anything to support them?
Stephan
You can not force anybody. You cannot push. That’s for sure. This realization takes time, especially because of this thought process. What am I gaining? What am I losing? Everybody needs to evaluate. Is it worth it for me personally? So on the outside, you and me, we could not influence or force anybody to do anything impossible but, if somebody feels they, for example, outgrown this community or something feels not right like they’re being restricted or whatever, then it’s time to do some research online, talk to their mental health professional in the area, or even reach out to former members like me or any other people they could find online.
Scott
And if someone does want to reach out to you, we’re going to have your email address in the episode notes so that anybody can contact you if they want to. You must look at Jehovah’s Witnesses – or maybe you’re out driving around and you see someone going door to door and you know who they’re with– do you just think, “Man, I am so glad that’s not me anymore.”?
Stephan
I do. Happened to me a while ago in Hong Kong. I was walking across the city and I saw them standing there in the pedestrian zone with those little foldable shelves, trying to get attention from the passersby, and I was like, “Wow, this could have been me right now. Man, I’m so glad. I’m so happy.” Exactly what you said. Such a good feeling to not be obliged and to be pressured into this kind of situation anymore.
Scott
You could be standing there in the hot sun trying to flag people down and convert people. We have them right here in my little town. I bike past them almost every morning. They’re always on the same corner. They got their bookshelf with the literature and all of that stuff.
Stephan
Yeah.
Scott
Why do you feel it’s important to tell this story?
Stephan
Exactly for the reason that you just mentioned. I believe that it’s not healthy to be restricted all the time to follow other people’s logics and other people’s beliefs. I wish that more people have the courage to break free from these chains, to define their own lives just like we did it – we, the people who left the group – and that they can live a better life.
Scott
And you did. You had the courage to do that.
Stephan
Yeah. It was tough. All right, before we close, I want you to talk about the podcast that you work with. I know it’s not your primary job but you work with a podcast that I subscribe to and listen to called Multispective. Can you just talk about that?
Stephan
Multispective is a storytelling podcast, just like yours. We have also people in, let’s say, unusual situations or with unusual experiences – for example, people who went to jail, even though they were innocent; or we had one guy who had a brain surgery and then, for some reason, couldn’t feel any fear anymore; or we have people who broke out of toxic relationships – basically, almost everything that you can see in this world but you’d never hear about. Recently, the majority of topics are a little bit more about spirituality and mental health but, yeah, it really depends. It really depends on the guests.
Scott
And you’re not the host of that but you work on that show, right? The host is Jennica and I just love listening to her because I identify with her so much because she is so compassionate and empathetic to her guests. She really makes it a safe space for people to come on and tell some traumatic stories. So we’ll have a link to that as well. Again, the show is called Multispective. I’ve never asked her about this but I guess that’s just because you want to get multiple perspectives on life from different people.
Stephan
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Scott
That’s a great way to describe it.
Stephan
We believe that everybody has their individual perspective on life with individual experiences and this is the platform to tell their stories, in a nutshell.
Scott
I am so happy that you were able to get away from that group. And is there any part of this that we haven’t talked about that you want to mention?
Stephan
I want to mention the reason why I actively joined the group. I mentioned briefly – before I was around 19, I was brought up in this group – when I was 19, I decided to get baptized and then officially became a member voluntarily. That was actually the bad influence, right? At the time, I was a bad influence to a girl I fell in love with. The thing is I wanted to be with her but her parents didn’t allow it because I was not baptized yet, so I was not a member of the group. So, they forbade her to see me. So I was like, “Okay, shit, what can I do? Maybe this is the way to go in order to get together with her.” Very pragmatic approach, right?
Scott
You had some incentive there.
Stephan
Yeah, I did. So what I did is I really struggled a lot and I put all my efforts into getting the numbers right and making more hours and becoming like a good follower and everything. Then, at some point, I got baptized and then a few years later we got married. That was the reason why I was married so early when I was 22.
Scott
And that’s the one that you’ve divorced from, eventually.
Stephan
Exactly, yeah.
Scott
Do you think because the marriage was more based on– I really have to work to get this girl as opposed to maybe, if she was in love with you, maybe she would have left Jehovah’s Witnesses to be with you? Would it start off a little bit, like, unstable that way?
Stephan
Honestly, I’ve never thought about this scenario but, I think, in her shoes, she wouldn’t have done that because she was young. She was 20 at the time when we got married and she didn’t go through all this thought process. Of course, I cannot really speak for her thoughts at the time, but I don’t think she would have left. She would rather have left me or ignored me than the group, I think.
Scott
Yeah, I mean, from her standpoint, “Okay, I could be with Stephan, or I could live forever. I don’t know. Which one should I choose? “
Stephan
Of course, everybody should choose me, obviously.
Scott
Big thanks to Stephan for coming on and telling his story. It really does take a lot of courage to step back and re-evaluate stuff that you’ve been taught your whole life since childhood. And especially to say, yeah, I don’t believe it any more.
You can see a picture of Stephan, and get a full transcript of this episode at the episodes notes which are at WhatWasThatLike.com/187.
Kelly
Hey Scott, this is Kelly out in Hood River, Oregon. I was doing a little bunch of cooking today while I was getting ready to go camping, and I found your podcast. I’ve kind of been getting stuck on the same podcast that I like and I came across yours today, and it was Kasey that I picked. Kasey and Henry is the one I picked today for my first ever. I love her story. She’s an amazing woman and I love their story. That was great. It’s just really cool and I really liked what she had to say. I didn’t know about her and now I can look her up on her website, and research her and what she’s doing for women. So I appreciate you having her on there and having her on there again. I really like your website – I mean your podcast. I’m sorry. I love your podcast. I’m going to keep listening and I’m going to check out your Facebook page because I have the most disgusting thing I’ve seen at somebody’s house and I’m going to post it. So anyway, Scott, cool. Thank you. Carry on. Bye.
Scott
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And the newest Raw Audio – episode 43 – is now live. In this episode, you’ll hear about a random shooting –
911 Operator
Ask him if he’s breathing.
Male
Is he breathing? (Pause) He’s not breathing.
Scott
Five children being rescued from a house fire –
911 Operator
Are you out of the house yet?
Child
No.
911 Operator
All right, get out of the house.
Child
We can’t.
Scott
And a woman who was trapped – inside a car wash –
Female
This is ridiculous. I am on 24th street in a car wash, stuck inside.
Scott
All 43 Raw Audio episodes are available to binge immediately after you sign up to support the podcast. And I appreciate it!
Graphics for this episode were created by Bob Bretz. Full episode transcription was created by James Lai.
And it’s Listener Story time! This is where one listener tells a story for all the other listeners to hear. If you have one, record it on your phone and send it to me at Scott@WhatWasThatLike.com.
This one is about a walk in the woods, and needs a content warning for sexual assault.
Stay safe, and I’ll see you next time.
(Listener story)
Do you believe God has a sense of humor? I do. I’ve seen it a lot of times. The one that stands out for me the most was when I was back in college. I went to a small liberal arts college and there was a park across the street. I had a major crush on a guy. Back in those days, the men made the first move. I tried my hardest to flirt but it didn’t seem to be getting me anywhere. So I just felt that I was never going to find a mate. I felt that I was not attractive and I was becoming very disheartened. I decided to take the afternoon off and go for a walk in the park.
I was walking through the park and I was talking to God. I told God, “Give me a sign. Give me any sign that I’m attractive to men.” I got no response and I frankly did not expect to hear one, but I kept walking through the park and kept praying and thinking. Before long, I came upon a man who was standing on a bridge and looking at the stream that flows through the park. He said, “It’s beautiful, isn’t it?” And I said, “Yes, it is.” He looked at me and he said, “Have you seen where the stream and the river come together?” And I said, “No.” And he said, “It’s beautiful. Would you like to come and look at it?” I said, “Sure.” I was very naive at the time, so of course I said I would go with this complete stranger into the woods and look at the river and the stream coming together.
So we went down a long path through the woods. As he walked, he pointed out various trees and flowers to me, and he told me what they were called. One tree in particular was full of 3-inch spikes. It was very intimidating. He asked me if I knew what it was and I said, no. He said, “It’s a Hawthorne tree.” Of course, being an English major, I had heard of Hawthorne, but I had no idea about the tree. He plucked one of the thorns off of it and handed it to me and it was pretty. It was a shiny mahogany-colored, 3-inch, very sharp, pointy spike. I held it in my hand and we kept walking and before long we ended up at a clearing.
When we got to the clearing, you could see the stream emptying into the river and it was, as promised, beautiful. So we stood there for a while, looking at it, and then he turned to me, and he started to kiss me and hold me, and then he said three words to me. He said, “Do you fuck?” Well, at that instant, everything changed. I was thrown into a panic. What had I gotten myself into? Here I was out in the middle of nowhere, miles from civilization, with a man I didn’t even know, and he was asking me this. I freaked out, mentally. I choked out. A barely audible no, and he proceeded to grab my boobs and grab my butt and continue to kiss me and I froze up and after a bit.
The panic just started to subside and I was able to think a little more clearly. The only thing I could think to do to get myself out of the situation was to start pushing his hands away. I finally got my voice back and I said, “Let go of me.” As I said that, I was pushing his hands away and that sharp spike found his flesh and he yelped. The pain brought him back to his senses. He apologized to me and stopped what he was doing. Then, he started walking me back to the park. We retraced our steps in complete silence. All I could think of was how dumb I had been to put myself in that situation to begin with.
Finally, when we got back to the bridge, he pointed out his pickup truck to me and he asked me if I wanted to go with him. I said no, and he said okay, and started to walk away. I turned and started to walk away. A minute later, I heard him call out to me, “Debbie.” I turned and looked, and he said three words to me, “You are beautiful.” Holy crap. I guess God really does have a sense of humor.