In 1988, Phil had just moved to Los Angeles. And he was in a tough spot.
At the time he had no job and very little money. So he was trying to come up with some kind of plan that could save him from being homeless. Since he had pretty vast knowledge in lots of different subject areas, he decided that he would try his hand at going on the TV game show, Jeopardy!
He had to pass an initial test, which he did, then he went to the contestant interview, and he passed that as well. And he actually got on the show. It didn’t solve his money problems though – even though he did well, he lost to a 5-time champion – by two dollars. Rather than earning any actual money, his parting gift was a bedroom set which forever became known as the Jeopardy! bed.
But twelve years later, he decided to try again, on a different show. In the year 2000, he was able to get on Who Wants to be a Millionaire, which at the time was hosted by Regis Philbin. This game show experience was very different.
Phil’s appearances on Who Wants to be a Millionaire:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEPMGv0S9Hc&t=2257s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QLq2Hq8_Dk
Phil’s wrote a detailed account of his experience:
Full show notes and pictures for this episode are here:
https://WhatWasThatLike.com/197
Graphics for this episode by Bob Bretz. Transcription was done by James Lai.
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Episode transcript (download transcript PDF):
In 1988, Phil had just moved to Los Angeles. And he was in a tough spot.
At the time he had no job and very little money. So he was trying to come up with some kind of plan that could save him from being homeless. Since he had pretty vast knowledge in lots of different subject areas, he decided that he would try his hand at going on the TV game show, Jeopardy!
He had to pass an initial test, which he did, then he went to the contestant interview, and he passed that as well. And he actually got on the show. It didn’t solve his money problems though – even though he did well, he lost to a 5-time champion – by two dollars. Rather than earning any actual money, his parting gift was a bedroom set which forever became known as the Jeopardy! bed.
But twelve years later, he decided to try again, on a different show. In the year 2000, he was able to get on Who Wants to be a Millionaire, which at the time was hosted by Regis Philbin. This game show experience was very different.
Scott
Have you always been pretty good at trivia contests?
Phil
The answer to that is an emphatic yes. In fact, I am the kind of guy who– in any office setting or even within my peer group if somebody has a crossword puzzle or a sports question or whatever, I’ve always been kind of notorious for being the go-to guy in that situation.
Scott
What caused you to try getting on Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?
Phil
Several things kind of came together. The first was somewhat of a professional situation I was involved in because I had worked in for a couple of banks, a consulting firm, and an insurance company, and then we’re going back to 2000. As I think most people will remember, that was during the Internet craze. I had taken a little bit of a flyer and I was working for an internet company in those days. They’d call it business development. You and I would probably call it sales.
Initially, I was really excited about it but, about six months into this job, I began to realize many internet situations. The product we were trying to sell really didn’t work. So, I already was kind of realizing, “I’m not here for the long term.” At the same time, people kept telling me about the show Who Wants To Be a Millionaire and knowing that it was Regis Philbin – I wasn’t that crazy about him. So the first time I ever, I just was flipping through the dial after resisting the show, Who Wants To Be a Millionaire and the first question I ever saw was, “What was the capital of Pennsylvania?” The answer is of course, “Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.” That was for about $32,000. And I’m thinking, “Wow. 32 grand for Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. This is cake.”
I also got this very odd feeling. I’m very down to earth. I’m not one of these spiritual types of people who get way into this stuff, and I just got this odd premonition that I’m going to get on this show and I’m going to win a million dollars. It was almost like a weird impulse and I pretty much just followed that, although it took quite a while, actually. Also even just getting on the show is kind of difficult.
Scott
Yeah. And we definitely want to find out about that. There’s this thing, as far as getting selected, you call it the fastest finger process. Can you explain how that works and how does that work to get you on the show?
Phil
Well, Much like the show, you basically had to call an 800 number and they would ask you a question that was framed like the fastest finger on the show. For instance, they would ask a question, “Put these presidents in order from the oldest to the most recent,” and then it would say, “Reagan, Washington, Jefferson, Harding.” You’d have to punch in on the phone dial, you’d have to put in B-C-A-D– or excuse me. I think that would have been B, C, D, A, which shows you how hard this is. They would ask you three of those questions and then, supposedly if you got three questions right, they put you in this pool. What I didn’t realize is it took me months. Then, after that, they set up a block of time, 15 minutes. You’d have to call in again and answer five questions in that same format. I did that once, but never heard anything. I got to the five questions. And then the second time, after 6 months of calling pretty much every day– by the way, again, my internet situation at work is getting more and more– the company is really hanging on by its fingernails.
Scott
You’re on a sinking ship there.
Phil
I’m on a sinking ship. The other thing is in that situation, when you jump out of corporate America and you say, “Hey, I’m going to the internet,” they’re like, “Well, hey, good luck. Nice knowing you,” because in those days, especially even with a headhunter, it’s not like, “Yeah, well, you’re the guy who went to the internet world and I’m not sure I could find a space for you back in corporate America.” So I was pretty focused on this. Finally, the second time I did answer the five questions. I answered four out of five correctly and they still selected me as one of the ten contestants on my show and then flew me and my father to New York City.
Scott
Yeah, I want to talk about that. I don’t think that’s very common for game shows, is it?
Phil
No.
Scott
I mean, this show paid for your airfare and hotel?
Phil
Yeah, it paid for airfare and hotel for me and one guest, which could have been anyone, and they put us up in a relatively nice hotel in New York City. Now, by comparison, if you appear on Jeopardy, which is filmed in Hollywood, you have to pay. They’ll let you on the show, but you have to show up at a given time and place and they don’t pay a cent. It’s up to you to get there. So that was, like, many things involved in the show. That was unique, I think, in the annals of game show history up to that point.
Scott
Did you have to take time off work to do this?
Phil
That was an interesting thing because I was working in Los Angeles. My internet company was headquartered in New York, and I actually didn’t even have officially have any vacation time, but the show was such a craze that I worked it out where I flew to New York, and the first day I had to spend basically at the studio, but the second day, I actually came in, which is pretty wild, because I had to come in after the first day, work half day at my job, and then go in to film the show. I kind of worked it out with my boss. Because of the excitement over the show, basically, she didn’t just roll over. She’s kind of looking at me saying, “Well, why do you need–?” I explained it to her and she let me do it. It was pretty complicated. It was one of those things that added a little bit of tension to the whole process.
Scott
But how convenient though. They had an office in New York. That’s where you went to work, right?
Phil
Yeah, exactly.
Scott
Okay. Once you get there, what’s the process? Once you get there, are you sure you’re going to go on the show? How do they figure that out?
Phil
The original Who Wants To Be A Millionaire, they changed it once they syndicated the show where it was more like a typical situation where they just pick you and start asking you questions. But on Who Wants To Be A Millionaire – forgetting even the warm-up which we’ll get to – you’re one of ten people who’s in a studio and you have to do the fastest finger competition again where they ask you a question, you have to put four answers numerically in order to just even get into the hot seat. But I have to add that, really, the day started with us. We started at 9 o’clock and the taping didn’t even begin until 2 in the afternoon. So we had to listen to basically a whole presentation and go through a rehearsal of the show.
The presentation, by the way, was by the legal department, the head of legal at ABC, who– and this actually became pretty important when I appeared on the show where she explained certain things. The one thing she emphasized was, “If there’s any issue at all with anything in terms of production, any glitch, anything where we think something was unfair or didn’t function properly, we’ll have to do it over again, whether you got it right or you got it wrong, etc. So just be aware of that. We’re going to be extra sensitive.” At the time, that went in one ear and out the other but, as you’ll see, for me, that became critical during part of the show.
Scott
Yeah, because you don’t want to get a question right and you think you won the money and now, oops, wait, we got to do it over again because then you got to win twice.
Phil
And then the other thing that she emphasized was that, whether you got into the hot seat, each contestant had a unique set and there were 16 total questions each. They had pre-selected 16 questions that didn’t change no matter whether you bombed out right away or whether– when you think, that’s kind of interesting because what it meant was, let’s say you got to the million-dollar question, they weren’t going to be able to kind of select something that maybe might throw you off. It was destiny. Either you, your questions were selected in advance and that was it. Once they were selected, there was nothing that they were going to change about that.
Scott
Were you guys in an order – who was able to go next? Or how did they determine who’s the next one to get in the hot seat with Regis Philbin?
Phil
After this whole process where they– oh, we even did some rehearsal by the way. What they do is they bring you into the actual studio. In the studio, it’s like a circle of seats. There are 10 seats, 10 contestants, and you were assigned a seat. Then, in rehearsal, they basically had someone read you a question and there’s this little metal box in front of you with four push button things, A, B, C, D. So they asked the question in rehearsal, can’t even remember what it was, but all three times they did this, I got it wrong and the same woman in rehearsal got basically all three of the questions correct in the fastest time before any of the other contestants.
Scott
That means she goes on first?
Phil
Well, that was the rehearsal, so it didn’t count, and yet it was indicative of this– this lady must be some phenom. After the rehearsal was over – this is maybe about 12.30 – they sent us to lunch and we had lunch. Then, because we’re in kind of casual clothes, we all go back to a dressing room, and we put on our clothes. For the actual show itself, basically, the first show that I got on, we lined up backstage in the order that we were going to come onto the stage – basically, this was even before they started filming. Regis Philbin comes in and they introduce him to each one of the contestants in order. So you’re standing in line behind the stage and he shakes everybody’s hand and you introduce yourself, which was kind of neat. He was charming and he was very Regis Philbin and everything. In his case, though, I was the last person of the new contestants. Remember, the show’s a continuation where they already have somebody in the hot seat from the previous show and that person was right behind me.
So, before they even started the filming, we all came out, we’re in our seats to sit down in front of Regis Philbin, but with our little box in front of us. When the taping starts, Regis Philbin walks out with the person who was in the hot seat when the previous show ended. At that point, we’re just kind of spectators and he’s going to ask this guy questions, and we’re going to wait for this guy to either win a million dollars or bomb out at some point. So then, again, the taping starts and it’s a little surreal because you’re in a TV studio. It’s not like you’re watching it at home.
All of a sudden, Regis Philbin is asking this guy questions. Now, this particular guy was very methodical. It’s nothing like television, which I’ll also get into, because they edit this stuff as I’m sure most people would understand. I mean, when Regis had asked this guy a question, he was taking, like, 5 minutes to answer.
Scott
Oh, so there’s no time limit?
Phil
No, there was no time limit, which is also critical. By the way, they changed that for, I think, syndication and some of the subsequent shows where they gave you, like, 60 seconds because, I do know that previous to me, only a few weeks before, there was a woman who, as she got higher and higher – I think at the $500,000 question – took 50 minutes to answer the question which, by the way, she got wrong.
Scott
I’m just thinking if somebody asks me a trivia question, if I don’t know it in the first minute, I’m not going to know it five minutes later either.
Phil
Well, my sense of that too is the more you think about it, the more your mind starts– especially with this kind of pressure. It’s sort of like a test. Your mind takes the first inclination. So I would agree with you, but everybody has their own process,
Scott
Okay, so this guy is already in the hot seat. How is he doing?
Phil
Well, again, he’s very methodical, but he got to $32,000. He answered that question correctly. Now, that’s a big number because if you miss before $32,000, assuming you get at least $1,000, you get to keep $1,000. But if you get to $32,000 and answer the $32,000 question correctly, you get to keep $32,000, no matter what happens after that.
Scott
So you want to definitely at least get to that level.
Phil
Exactly. So he left. Then, they basically said, “Okay, it’s time for the fastest finger.” And they asked the fastest finger question about bestselling books. Again, it was horrible. I barely finished it and I knew I just screwed this up and that’s the thing. Again, throughout this whole process, I’m starting to get a little intimidated because I just figured, “You know what? I’m going to win a million dollars. I know I’m going to win a million dollars.” And all of a sudden, I’m sitting in this dark studio and I’m thinking, “You know what? Maybe I’m not even going to get into the hot seat. This is hard. This is really hard.”
Well, this woman bombed out. She got $2,000. She answered maybe five questions and she was gone. Next guy, they say, “Okay, fastest figure again.” They asked – actually, it was an interesting question – “Put these states in order from the number of borders it has. How many borders from least to most?” And I saw Maine. I saw Maine first and I said, “Maine’s got to be,” and I put that as the first one. Then, I got to the end and I saw Alaska, which has no borders and I realized, “Again, I screwed up the question.” So I didn’t even get it right and I’m sitting there again. It means I got to sit through– this is now going to be the third contestant. I’m not even close. Again, I’m thinking, “Wow, this is hard.”
Scott
And if you don’t get in the hot seat that day, you just go home?
Phil
You’re toast. Yeah. This is your one shot. Luckily, again, this guy got to $8,000 and then he bombed out. So, again, it’s time for another fastest finger. So we’re onto the fourth contestant and this time I’m getting really focused. I’m like, “You know what? Come on. I gotta do better. This is terrible.” And by the way, my dad’s in the audience. He’s looking at me, which is a little bit of additional pressure cause it’s going to be like, “Hey dude, you didn’t even get it right.”
Scott
You came all this way–
Phil
Yeah, 3100 miles. And I only told a few people initially that I was going to even be on the show because I fear what if I go there and fall flat on my… you-know, so it could be a real embarrassment. Anyway, the fourth fastest finger or fourth contestant, they asked the question. It has to do with civil rights leaders. For some reason, the question just clicked and I clicked and got all the answers. I said, “I know I got that right.” There’s this huge board. As it’s right in front of you, it has all the names for the fastest finger. If you get it correct, your name clicks bright neon green along with the time. Remember, you got to be faster than any other contestant. Well, I was at the bottom. My name clicks and I can see it’s still moving very quickly, but I have the fastest time, and they got to the last guy at the top of the thing, and he beat me by five-tenths of a second. So here I am. I figure this is also going to be– because this is the fourth contest for the hot seat. Even with three people, two went pretty quickly. We’ve already been in the taping now. It’s probably at least 90 minutes.
The guy sits down. He’s a graduate student from Johns Hopkins. So I’m thinking, “You know what? This guy’s probably a pretty smart dude. I’m screwed. I’m totally screwed because we’re going to run out of time.” Usually, when you watch the show, they only get maybe three contestants. This is the fourth contestant. This guy’s from Johns Hopkins and sure enough, I’m sitting there– and by the way, Scott, this is when it started to sink in. I’m thinking like, “You know what? You’re not going to win a million dollars. I just can’t. I almost couldn’t process it at that point.” Also, this guy is whipping through the questions really quickly and he’s not hesitating and he’s very composed.
In the production, they would stop the taping to edit in commercials. So basically, it would just shut everything down because what they were doing was, during the editing process, I think they add the commercials they’re going to show during the program. So, basically, they shut down the production and they were doing this throughout this whole thing. The guy who was, like, the production assistant came over to all of us and he said, “After this session, that will be the end of the taping, meaning you’re not going to get on.”
They went back to the taping and they asked this guy this question, “This actor in the Godfather series did not win an Academy Award.” And the four answers were Coppola, De Niro, Brando. and Al Pacino. As opposed to being very confident, all of a sudden, he hesitated and I’m sort of sitting there with my head in my hands and I start to sort of peek through my fingers thinking, “Whoa, maybe he doesn’t know this.” And then I’m also thinking, “No, this is the gods just tormenting me even more. I’m sure he’s going to come up with it.” Well, he didn’t know the answer. By the way, one of the options is to ask the audience in the studio audience. They asked the audience and they gave him the answer, Robert De Niro. Well, that’s the wrong answer.
Scott
Of those four answers, it seems like three of them were actors, but one was the director, right?
Phil
Well, yeah, but Coppola did win.
Scott
Oh, a directing Oscar. Okay.
Phil
Yeah. Directing Oscar for The Godfather. Al Pacino never won any Oscar for any of the Godfather movies. In fact, he kind of very famously won it for Scent of a Woman, which is not one of his memorable films. Anyway, all of a sudden they give him the wrong answer and he goes with it and he bombs out and it’s kind of, like, chaotic because everybody’s getting ready to wrap everything. You can almost see people wrapping up cables and everything and, all of a sudden, the PA guy goes, “Okay, another, fastest finger question.” And I’m like a reprieve from the governor here.
The next question they ask is, “Put these songs in order from oldest to newest.” And the songs were, “Don’t stop”, “Don’t stop believing”, “Don’t make me over”, “Don’t Worry. Be happy.” I was a pretty big rock guy. The only question I could remember is, “Don’t Stop” is Fleetwood Mac, and “Don’t stop believing” is Journey. But then I remembered “Don’t Make Me Over” is, like, an old 50s song by Leslie Gore. “Don’t Worry, Be Happy” is I think Bobby McFerrin or something. That’s much later. So the only one I had to really think about was “Don’t Stop” and “Don’t Stop Believing.” Then I remembered, “Oh, Fleetwood Mac way before Journey.” I plugged that in and, this time on the board, only two people got it right. I was, like, three seconds faster than the other guy, and then it happened.
Regis comes over and he literally had to, like, almost– I’m maybe sort of embellishing this a little bit, but he almost had to come over and grab me by the elbow and start leading me into the hot seat. Now, I was telling you about this woman before, okay? So I got into the hot seat. Regis Philbin is normally very effusive and he wouldn’t even look at me, and I’m thinking like, “What’s going on here?” I knew there was something weird going on, and the stage director was right next to you. There’s a guy with a headset, not the director of the show and not the producer, but there’s a guy who’s like the stage manager and he keeps saying to Regis, “Not yet.” And I’m going like, “What is going on here?”
Well, my dad explained to me that, again, the same woman who had gotten all the questions right in rehearsal hadn’t got a single question right during the taping of the show. She complained that there was something wrong with her mechanism. But at this point, I’m almost in a coma because I realized there’s something wrong here. I don’t know what it is, but what if they come back and say, “We’re going to have to do this over again”? At that point, they’d have to take me out of there in a litter because–
Scott
–that is some stress.
Phil
This is some stress. I’m looking around. All these people are looking at me. Regis Philbin is two feet in front of me and he’s looking straight down. All of a sudden, the stage manager goes, “Good to go, Regis.” And he looks right up and he goes, “You made it. Okay, let’s go.” One of those things. At that point, though, Regis asked me– I got three questions. And then they have, like, a horn sound, meaning that’s it for the day. The three questions were really simple questions. We don’t have to get into them but I can tell you that, had they asked me anything at all complicated, it was going to be really– because, at that point, I had trouble even just focusing. It was an overwhelming type of stress but also kind of like euphoria that, “Oh, wow. I did this. I got this far.” By the way, in my introduction, he did say to me, “This is only the second time that we’ve had five contestants.” The show had been on for about a year at that point, so this is the only second time that had happened.
Scott
So you knew for sure, at least at this point, you’re going to be on the show twice because you got through those three questions and then they always carry it over and start with the same person from the previous episode. So man, what did you do that night? You got to do something to go relax, right?
Phil
That was pretty funny because my uncle also lived in New York City, so my dad who lived in California, and my uncle– and by the way, we’re all very Irish and this came up so clearly. We were all euphoric just cause I got into the hot seat. At that point, it kind of wasn’t even, “Well, are you going to win a million dollars?” It was more like, “Wow, that’s amazing.” Of course, we went to an Irish bar immediately.” I think I called my mother just to tell her what had happened. Then, at seven o’clock at night, we went out and had dinner. Now the thing is they kept me out pretty late. The other thing that I kind of mentioned was I had to go to work in the morning. At that point, if you’re the person in the hot seat, they don’t make you sit through the whole rehearsal again. You just have to show up at the studio at one o’clock in the afternoon.
Scott
Oh, okay. So that’s good.
Phil
That’s great, except I had to go to work and show up and be there. Of course, my dad and my uncle being Irish, who were at an Irish bar in New York, and under the circumstances, they’re like, “Yeah, let’s stay out of the heck with it. They won’t care.” So I had to drag myself out of bed and actually go in with all the– because people knew and they’re like, “Well, what happened?” And I said, “Well, I have to go back and be in the hot seat this afternoon.” And people were like, “Are you kidding?” And then some people like, “What are you even doing here? Why are you at work? Why are you here?” Anyway, I just said, “Look, I promised I’d be here.” It’s one o’clock and I go to that same locker room area.
Scott
Walking into the building, how nervous were you at that point?
Phil
So at that point, I’m composed. I’m also looking forward to it. It’s something that I’ve been working for. At that point, I’m still okay. Also, I’m confident because I got into the hot seat. It’s that whole feeling of, “Wow, this is really hard. Maybe I can’t do this now.” Well, I’ve seen hundreds of these or 50 of these shows. I’ve always done pretty well watching. I should be able to do pretty well once the show starts.
Scott
It’s a little different pressure sitting on the couch at home though.
Phil
Yeah, of course. I changed to my better clothes. This time, I’m the guy who’s standing with Regis Philbin behind stage. This was kind of interesting because they march all the other people out into their seats where they’re sitting, and then basically I’m behind stage with Regis Philbin. There’s this pause where they’re doing the intro to the show, but he looks at me and he says, “Gibbons. You’re going to win a lot of money. You’re going to win a lot of money.” And that whole Regis Philbin thing. I’m like ready to crash through a wall at that point but, of course, I’m sure he says that to everybody.
So we walk out there and we sit down. At that point, it just hits me, like, almost in an overwhelming, like, adrenaline where I can’t say I was going to faint. I’m, like, looking around and, again, all these people are looking at me and stuff, but I’m thinking, “Oh my, this is real. This is really happening.” And by the way, one of the things they told you in the warm-up was, “Don’t be so nervous that you just blurt out an answer. You have all the time in the world.” But almost immediately that kind of went out the window. When you start answering questions between the people looking at you, your inclination is to just, “Oh, I got to answer right away.”
I was kind of lucky because the first question they asked me– and then they asked me a question about potable drinks. That was really easy because potable is what’s drinkable. Then, they asked me a question about, “Which British queen had the famous nickname ‘bloody’?” And that of course was Bloody Mary. That was easy. All of a sudden, I’m thinking, “Hey, I’m taking a deep breath and it’s just like watching at home. This is really simple.” Well, then, at $2,000, they asked me, “The Razor is a name for a popular type of what?” Well, I don’t have kids. At that point, the Razor was– I don’t know. Maybe you know what a Razor is.
Scott
Yeah. The little foot-powered scooters.
Phil
Exactly. I had no idea. Even after I’d looked, the options they gave you were a scooter, a palm-size computer, an athletic shoe, and a bicycle. I still looked at that and I’m like, “Damn, I have no idea.” And you try to avoid using any– you have three things that you could do – you can ask the audience, you can call a friend, and you can eliminate two of the four answers. So you have those three options to help you along the way. It’s not just answering the questions. So I asked the audience. They gave me the right answer. So I’m thinking, “Okay, that’s not exactly how I’d want this to play out, but we’ll keep going forward.” Well, then they asked me-
Scott
And this next question was for how much?
Phil
Next question is $4,000. “19th-century stage lighting methods included the flame heating of what chemical compound to spotlight actors?” The four answers are carbonic oxide, lime, boric acid, and potash. I’m looking at that and some people said that was an easy question. I can’t figure out why you were so stumped on that, but I looked at that question– this is the kind of overwhelming between your nerves from the situation, looking around, and being almost personally impatient. I have no idea what the answer is here. So then, I just started to try to think and they said, “Well, read the question over. Think. Don’t blurt anything out.” And I said, “Well, chemical compound. Chemical compound – well, carbonic oxide, that’s two chemicals. Maybe that’s the right answer.”
I said that out loud and Regis Philbin looked at me and he said, “Now, are you sure? Or is that a guess?” Well, I had known after seeing so many programs that if he says that and he doesn’t know the answer, he thinks he knows the answer when he uses that phrase, he is pretty much telling you that you’re about to give the wrong answer. So I hesitated again. I said, “Well, Regis, I don’t know.” And he said, “Well, you have some other options.” And I said, “Okay, let’s eliminate two of these.” So it left me with boric acid and lime. So I’m sitting there and I’m looking around and I said, “Again, well, boric acid, they use that for a lot of different functions. Maybe it’s boric acid.” Without even hesitating, Regis Philbin says again, “Are you sure? Or is that a guess?” And now I’m going, “Oh my, come on. What?” And it’s $4,000. I’m just thinking, whenever I see somebody on television who lost at $4,000, that guy’s thick as a brick.
Scott
That’s an embarrassment.
Phil
Yeah, that’s an embarrassment. So I’m looking around and I’m saying, “Boric acid, lime.” By the way, in a studio like that, there are lights everywhere. I’m thinking of the words, “Boric acid, lime,” and all of a sudden, the words lime and light– my mind came together and I realized you’re in the limelight. Because they edited this way down, they didn’t even show Regis saying, “Are you sure? Is that a guest?” All of a sudden I say, “Oh, something just came to me. You’re in the limelight. You’re in the limelight.” And Regis Philbin is, like, literally a foot away from me. It goes, “Phil, you’re a genius.” People said, “Well, gee, why did he do that or whatever?”
Right before that, he did banter a little bit with my dad and my uncle, and he asked, “What did you guys do last night?” My dad and my uncle looked very New York Irish. I said, “Well, my dad, my uncle, and I, we went to an Irish bar.” And of course, he said, “Oh, of course you did.” And everybody started laughing. So one of the reasons I think he was kind of nudging me a little bit was because he didn’t want me to bomb out right after we had this wonderful discussion with my dad and my uncle. So it was like, “Okay, come on, let’s keep you up, and let’s breathe some life into this pathetic character here.”
Scott
If you think about it from his standpoint, he wants people to really win a lot of money because that’s good for viewership and ratings and everything. And he’s not paying out the million dollars, so who cares? He’d rather see people win.
Phil
Yeah, exactly. So the next question is, “What actor made his motion picture debut as the star of the 1970 movie Hercules in New York?”
Scott
And this one was for $8,000?
Phil
$8,000. And the answers were Nick Nolte, Robert De Niro, Robert Duvall, Arnold Schwarzenegger. Now remember, it sounds like it’s obviously Arnold Schwarzenegger, but the year is 1970 and that’s kind of early for Arnold Schwarzenegger. I even said out loud, “I think it’s Arnold Schwarzenegger.” I knew it wasn’t Robert Duvall, which I even said because Robert Duvall’s first movie was To Kill a Mockingbird. It’s not Nick Nolte, but I was thinking it could be Robert De Niro and it could be a curveball question. I phoned a friend and luckily this guy was a popular culture junkie, so he knew right off the bat. I got that answer, which was Arnold Schwarzenegger, which I kind of knew anyway. But Scott, the problem now is I’m at $8,000 with a lot of territory still to cover.
Scott
You’ve got a long way to go without any lifelines.
Phil
No, with no lifelines. So at that point too, they go to a break and no one is really talking to me. Like, the production assistant comes out and just says, “Hey, well look, you’re at $8,000. Do you want a glass of water?” And he just walks away from it because they’re mentally preparing for how are we going to move along to the next contestant.
Scott
Assuming you’re going to lose.
Phil
Yeah. Well, then, something odd happened. The question they next showed on the actual program was not the question they asked me in the studio. In the studio, at $16,000, they asked me, “The annual Pulitzer Prize awards are bestowed by what university?” – Harvard, Yale, Northwestern, Columbia – and this one I answered quickly. I said, “The answer is Columbia.” So that was pretty straightforward. I got it right. I felt a little better.
The question they asked at $32,000 was, “What musician sings the theme song for the TV series Dawson’s Creek?” And the answers were Alanis Morissette. Sarah McLachlan, Tori Amos, and Paula Cole. Now remember, I’m at $32,000 in the studio, which is a big number and, if I get it right, I get to keep $32,000. Well, this is kind of a funny exchange. On the other hand, I don’t know about you, Scott, but Dawson’s Creek wasn’t high on the list of television shows that I was religious about. I’ve never seen an episode. So I looked at Regis Philbin and I just said to him, “Regis, you’re killing me here.” I mean, Dawson’s Creek– and he just looked at me and the whole audience started laughing. He’s cracking, he’s laughing, and then he says, “Oh, you don’t watch Dawson’s Creek?” And I’m like, no.
Again, I’m pretty frustrated. I started just thinking out loud and I finally whittled it down because Paula Cole, I’d never heard of. I just said, “Paula Cole, she’s somebody I’ve never heard of. I’ve heard of the other three. They’re pretty famous. Maybe she’s singing the theme song to the show.” Well, he kind of looked at me and he was like, “Good luck.” And then I kind of stopped cause I wasn’t sure. Well, geez, maybe again, I don’t know. Maybe I’ll think about it a little more.
Well, the stage manager is standing right next to me. You can’t see him on camera. It’s a TV studio, which is so much more enclosed and it looks like you’re in Shea Stadium or something, but you’re not. It’s a tiny studio and he’s standing close to me and he keeps saying into his little headset, “Are we going to throw a break here? Are we going to throw a break here?” Meaning, basically, “When this loser loses, because he doesn’t know the answer, he’s clearly going to be gone. Are we going to either stop the taping or are we going to go to the fastest finger? What are we going to do?” And clear as a bell, I hear, in his headset, I hear the voice, and I think it was the producer of the show or director who’s in a booth watching this. I hear clear as a bell, “No, he’s going to get it right.”
Scott
Oh, and you had already said out loud, “Paula Cole.”
Phil
I had already said Paula Cole. My first reaction was, “Oh my God, the whole studio must’ve heard that. Regis must’ve heard that. That’s how loud–” And then my mind started to play some tricks on me thinking maybe I didn’t really hear that. It was like that kind of intense pressure. So I’m hemming and hawing, and I think, “Well, I got nowhere else to go.” I think I heard that and I say, “Paula Cole.” And Paula Cole was the right answer. It turned out that she had won the Grammy for best new artists for the year and the album. The song was, “I don’t want to wait for my life to be over,” which was a huge hit.
So I got to the right place and I got lucky by getting that almost unbelievable help from the guy who, I guess, didn’t even realize that I had heard that. So I’m at $32,000 and Regis is shocked because he didn’t know the answer either. He’s like, “Wow, you’re still here.” And I’m like, “Yeah, I guess I’m still here.” It’s on to $64,000, and that is, “Which of these is not a novel by trend-watching author, Douglas Copeland?” And the four answers are Generation X, Shampoo Planet, Microsurfs, High Fidelity. Now, something about this is, if you get further, like, to $125,000 or $250,000, if you get that wrong, you go back to $32,000. But when you think about it, $64,000, you have a free guess because, if you get it wrong, you go back to $32,000. If you get it right, you go back to $64,000. So, you might as well guess because you’re not really losing anything if you get it wrong.
I knew the book Generation X, but I did not know the other two books, but I was kind of thinking that they were his books, but the fourth and correct answer, High Fidelity, it’s hard to explain, but it almost jumped right out at me. That sounds like a normal-sounding title to me. I think I’m just going to go with High Fidelity, but it just sounded right. So I went with High Fidelity and that was the right answer. At this point, they went to another break and he ended by saying, “We can’t stop him. This guy is on some kind of a roll,” which at that point, I was feeling a lot better than I had been at $8,000.
Scott
But at this point, the last two questions were just guesses. You didn’t really know for sure. You’re just kind of still skating on by.
Phil
Yeah, I was just kind of going for it. If I was sitting across the table from somebody asking me a question like if we were just having a kitchen table conversation, only for $64,000. The next money level is $125,000.
Scott
When you get to that level, you’re at $125,000 now. You can hear the question and decide not to answer it, and then you win $64,000. Is that the way it works?
Phil
Yes, all the way up to a million. That’s why the $64,000 question is not a big decision because, if you get it wrong, you just go back to $32,000 anyway.
Scott
It’s a little different than on Jeopardy where you have to bet a certain amount before you even hear the question.
Phil
Correct, right.
Scott
Okay, good.
Phil
So the next question at $125,000 is, “In 1997, the National Organization Students Against Drunk Driving changed the last words of its name to what?” And the four answers were “Discrimination and denial”, “Drugs and drinking”, “Danger and delinquency”, and “Destructive decisions.” Mentally, I’m looking at discrimination and denial. That has nothing to do with the organization, really. The next one I eliminated is danger and delinquency. Well, nobody’s used juvenile delinquency for 40 years. I even said, “Yeah, that’s an archaic term.” And then drugs and drinking, destructive decisions– I’m thinking drugs and drinking, some PR guy did this anyway. Destructive decisions just sound better – that’s what somebody would sit down and focus group and all this kind of stuff – whereas drugs and drinking, that’s almost off-putting and stuff. So that has almost a stigma attached to it. So, I said, “Regis, I think it’s destructive decisions.” And so he said, “Are you sure you want to make that your final answer?” He had no idea. He’s looking at me and he sort of even hesitated, and I said, “Yeah, I think that’s my final answer.” And he kind of tried to play out the suspense. But when he did that, that would be cruel if I got it wrong, but he sort of played it out and he played it out and I got the right answer.
Scott
So at this point, you’ve won $125,000. Are you still in the game or are you thinking, “Man, what am I going to spend that money on?”
Phil
No, I know I’m totally in the game, but I was thinking, “I could go a lot further here.” I had a rough patch but I’m feeling really good right now. The funny thing is there were times I’m, “Wow, this is wild. I’m not even nervous except that I would reach for a glass of water and the water would be shaped like shaking visibly.” So I realized it was some kind of adrenaline, like an interesting feeling that, frankly, you just got into that zone, whatever it is, where you’re just totally comfortable.
Scott
All right. So, now you’re at $250,000.
Phil
$250,000, yeah. Which country encompasses all of Asia Minor? Turkey, Indonesia, Iran, Ukraine. The strangest things happen at times like this but, when I was a little kid, I would always read National Geographic magazine and they had maps that came with them and I collected all those maps. I had those maps and I always remembered when Turkey would always just say underneath it, Asia Minor. I really didn’t have any idea, especially as a little kid, what that meant but I just know that Turkey is always referred to as Asia Minor. I don’t want to blurt anything out, so I kind of went through the others and I just said, “I know it’s not Iran. I know it’s not Indonesia. I know it’s not Ukraine.” And of course, Regis Philbin started laughing and he said, “Well, that just leaves us with one other country.” I said, “I think it’s Turkey.” Whether he knew it or not, he just said, “You got it for $250,000.” At that point, I’m thinking, “Yeah, $250,000. That’s a lot of money.”
Scott
So then you keep going now. So next is $500,000?
Phil
$500,000. What Russian prime minister was deposed by the Bolsheviks in October 1917? Lavr Kornilov, Alexander Kerensky, Leon Trotsky, Nikolai Bulganin. And Scott, I have to tell you about something that happened weeks before I even went to the taping. I got a call from a production assistant and they said, “Hi, I’m so-and-so from the staff of Who Wants to Be a Millionaire. We just want to do a little bit of an interview for you to find out information about you. Regis knows all about you.” I’m thinking like, “Okay, cool.”
So she says, “Okay, what school did you go to?” I think that’s kind of odd. I’ve never even heard Regis Philbin ask about that but, “Well, I went to X university.” So then she said, “Okay, so what did you major in?” And I’m thinking of myself as being somewhat streetwise, and this has nothing to do with Regis. They’re trying to figure out what I know and I don’t know. So I said, “I had an independent concentration.” That’s where you could put together a bunch of courses and go to a dean, and they can okay it for you. She was pretty sharp. She said, “Well, okay, so your independent concentration, what courses did you put into that?” I thought and I said, “Well, what are two things I know absolutely nothing about?” So I said, theology and anthropology. And then it confirmed, like, the next couple of questions. “What sports do you like?” I didn’t want to be like a jerk and just say, “I don’t like sports or I don’t watch sports” because then they probably think, “This guy’s kind of being cagey.” I said, “Well, I don’t really follow many pro sports, but I do follow horse racing really closely” because I knew they were not going to ask a horse racing question, but I didn’t come off like somebody who’s trying to be cagey with her.
Scott
You’re not trying to game the system sort of.
Phil
Exactly. And you wonder, “Well, why did you tell that story?” Well, the reason I told that story was because I majored in European history with a minor in Russian history. So, when I saw this question, it was pretty stunning because I knew the answer right off the bat. Again, I was so kind of nervous but I did say to Regis Philbin, “Regis, I do have an interest in Imperial Russian history, and I can tell you that it’s not Bulganin,” and I kind of defined who he was, and Leon Trotsky, I defined who he was. When this question first came up, Regis Philbin was looking at me like, “It’s too bad, this kid’s been on a roll.”
Scott
Right, nobody’s going to know this.
Phil
Yeah. And I’m going through this and, all of a sudden, his eyes are getting super wide and he’s going, “Damn, I think this kid knows the answer.” And I finally got to Alexander Kerensky. I even said the prime minister of the provisional government because we don’t need to get into Russian history, but that’s a little bit more detail. It’s like, “Yeah, that’s somebody who probably knows what he’s talking about here.” So he didn’t even hesitate. As soon as I said, “Yeah, Kerensky is my final answer,” he said, “You got it for $500,000” cause he knew that I had gotten the right answer.
By the way, the studio audience was already getting pretty excited but, at this point, they feel like flipping out for this show. My uncle and my father were right behind me and they were flipping out too. Now, the thing is, I can’t see them. I can only see a little bit of the audience. All I can really see is that it’s very surreal. It’s a huge, like, panorama screen of me, just only me, directly in front of me. Of course, after that, they went to a break and I sat there for a solid 10 minutes, just sitting there looking around. In fact, the producer of the show came up to me and said, “Hey, we do a show where we bring back some of the big winners.” And I think what he was really saying is, “Don’t screw up here because you probably got a shot of coming back here again.” Then, we’re sitting there and they come back.
I have to say that this was kind of the – I don’t want to say – downer because the whole experience was amazing, but we’re sitting there and Regis goes to the million dollar question and it was, “In the US, the Sony Walkman personal cassette player was originally marketed in 1979 under what name?” And the four options were Soundabout, Listener, Eardrummer, and Stowaway. I had no idea. I just said, “I don’t have any idea.” He tried to sort of push me to take a guess because, by the way, as we kind of discussed, if I get it wrong, I go back to $32,000.
Scott
You could just decide not to answer and you’re at $500,000.
Phil
And I keep the $500,000. And by the way, before I forget, I’m the only person to be out of lifelines at $8,000 and make it to the million-dollar question. At that point, especially after being on Jeopardy and losing by $2, I’m thinking, “I don’t want to bomb out here. I’ll be the biggest loser in history. So I’m keeping the $500,000.” And he was a little disappointed only because I think he was ready for me to almost– it’s like, if this kid wins a million dollars, this may be on the cover of People Magazine. This is pretty, pretty wild. But I just walked away and that was the end of it.
Scott
And the correct answer for that one was?
Phil
The correct answer for that was Soundabout. Some people said to me that actually, in Europe, they kept the name Soundabout. It was always Soundabout. I had never heard of that.
Scott
But you didn’t get a check right away though, right?
Phil
No. And in fact, one of the things that they tell you is the show has to air. This was July 24th, 25th, and the show didn’t air until August 13th, August 15th – two or three weeks later. That was a long 2-3 weeks.
Scott
So if they don’t decide to air that show, you don’t win anything.
Phil
No, again, the woman who came out, the legal person who came out, basically, she said, “You just never know. There are no plans not to air it. We don’t have any sense that we’re not going to air it. But for whatever reason, if we don’t air it, you do not get paid the money.” Now, I mean, the chances of that were pretty long, but…
Scott
They just want you to be ready for that possibility.
Phil
Yeah.
Scott
Okay.
Phil
I was still, of course, working at the internet company and I went to lunch one day. I came back and there was a FedEx envelope sitting in my chair. I gave my work address cause I didn’t want them sending $500,000 or any check to my home address where I wasn’t going to be there during the work day, so I gave them my work address. So I came back from lunch and there was a FedEx thing just sitting that the secretary didn’t know what it was. She left it on my chair and I opened it up and it was an envelope with a check inside for $500,000.
Scott
That’s a nice lunch.
Phil
Yeah. And then the funny thing was I went to a local Bank of America branch and I was a Bank of America customer and I said, “I’d like to deposit this check.” She looked at it and the manager came over and even had a sense of humor about it. He said something like, “Well, we’re not going to hand it to you if you want. We could deposit it into your account.” I said, “Yeah, I know.” And she said, “It’s going to take a couple of days to clear.” And she’s getting ready for me to start jumping up and down. I said, “I got it. Just deposit it. Give me a receipt and we’re good to go.” But I did have the receipt because they gave you a deposit receipt. I think I had that in the refrigerator for at least a couple of years.
Scott
Now, when you wrote something to me originally, you said that the bank manager there tried to schedule appointments with you for lots of salesmen. What was that about?
Phil
Well, they knew that I was sitting there with $500,000. All these branches have people who can be your personal banker. They have people who can sell you financial instruments like stock, stocks, and bonds. So for a solid month, I was getting calls from various different Bank of America people who, “Hey, by the way, I spoke with the branch manager and blah, blah, blah.” And I said, “Well, yeah.”
Scott
“We’d like to manage your portfolio.” Right?
Phil
Yeah, exactly.
Scott
So what did you do with that money or how did you spend it?
Phil
I was making a reasonably good living at the internet company. I had a pretty good anticipation of what was going to happen, so I didn’t just walk out the door. I waited about three months. I kind of planned what I was going to do but, for many years, like most Americans, I had gotten maybe 2-3 weeks of vacation that everybody takes and they may go to some destination somewhere. I kept a list of places I would go in Europe that were – being a history major, etc – interesting. They were everything from running with the bulls of Pamplona to the Oktoberfest to things that were even a little more obscure – maybe some cathedral somewhere. But my list had probably a hundred things on it. I just decided, “You know what I’m going to do? I’m just going to quit my job and I’m going to go to Europe for six months or so. I’m going to go to all these different things on my list.”
Scott
And you still have a lot of money left from it too.
Phil
Yeah, exactly. People always ask, “Okay, you got $500,000, but this is America. How much did you actually keep?” The federal tax, I didn’t mind. Now, the other thing about that was I had earned a pretty good living that year. So on top of my withholding I had to pay, I got to keep $280,000. So on top of my withholding for a pretty good year, I had to pay another $220,000. The feds, that’s one thing, but California, I had to pay, I think about $90,000. If I was in Texas or Nevada or Florida, I don’t have to tell you. So that was a little, but still– I mean, I could have walked out of there with $1,000. So I went to Europe and then, after that, I had the decision, “Well, Yeah, I guess I can go out and get another real job, but I just was kind of not in the mood.” From there, I basically got involved and I taught in the public school system for 12 years after that. Then, after that, I made a documentary film. Right now, of all things, I have my own podcast. It’s a history podcast.
Scott
Yeah, I wanted to ask you about your podcast. I know, if you go on Apple and search for it, you got to search for “Byte Sized Biographies.” The actual name is some very famous people you’ve never heard of. What is it about?
Phil
Basically, it can be everybody and even the logo has Edgar Allen Poe in it. Some of the other people I do are certainly people you’ve heard of. When people say, “Well, who’s on there?” And I’ll say, “Oh, everyone ranging from Edgar Allen Poe.” And they’ll say, “Well, I know who Edgar Allen Poe is.” And I’ll say, “Okay, tell me everything you know about Edgar Allen Poe.” And they probably get through about 30 seconds and they don’t know, for instance, that he’s the only American literary figure who got kicked out of West Point or even attended West Point. So that’s one. I do people like that are, again, quirky, but famous. But then I also do people– there was a movie called The Duke and it was with Helen Mirren. It’s a fabulous movie and it’s about a guy who is basically kind of a gadfly and he decides to steal the painting of the Duke of Wellington from the British National Museum. I just recently did one about the three guys who escaped from Alcatraz, who got out of Alcatraz and were never heard from ever again. It’s stuff like that.
Scott
It kind of reminds me of Paul Harvey talking about the rest of the story, the stuff that nobody really knows. So people could probably scroll through your list of episodes and pick out people that they might be interested in and learn more about them.
Phil
I’m on just about every podcast. I’m on Spotify. I’m on every podcast database. I’m certainly on Apple, iTunes, Byte Sized Biographies. You can scroll through them all. You can even go to my website, which is someveryfamouspeople.com. That has photographs too that are coordinated with the episodes.
Scott
Any plans to go on any other game shows?
Phil
My completely succinct and absolute answer is no. I’ve gotten emails from some friends of a friend who have even referred me because I live in Los Angeles. They’re always looking for contestants, and people have even asked me officially, “Would you like to come on our show just trolling for contestants?” And I always say no because I just don’t think– you can’t go home again. After the Jeopardy experience not being particularly good and then you had this experience, which was sensational, I always say to people, “No, I’m retired from the game show business.“
Scott
Go out while you’re on top.
Phil
Yeah, exactly.
Scott
In the episode notes, we’ll have a link to a more detailed account of your experience that you wrote, which people can read if they want. And we’ll also have videos of each of your appearances on Who Wants To Be a Millionaire. I think people will be interested in watching that and they can kind of see how it happened right there in real time, just like you described it.
Phil
That sounds fabulous. And I urge people to take a look at it because it’s really fun stuff. And if you know the inside story, I think it will make it even more fun.
Scott
As we mentioned in our conversation, you can see the actual videos of Phil’s appearance on the show – just check the episode notes at WhatWasThatLike.com/197. And if you liked this episode, you might like some previous ones we’ve done – I’ve had guests who have appeared on Shark Tank, Wheel of Fortune, and The Price Is Right.
Okay, in keeping with the theme of today’s episode – are you up for a trivia challenge? Because we have a contest going on right now.
You have probably heard the new opener for the past few episodes. This is the selection of pre-recorded clips that I pull from previous What Was That Like episodes. I change it every couple of years. Well – the new one has 9 audio clips. In fact, I’ll play it for you again, here:
Scott: Real people in unreal situations.
Female 1: The eerie silence when I walked in and he’s just staring at me.
Female 2: I was like, “Hello? Are you okay?”
Female 3: And then I had to tell him it was me.
Female 4: There was just blood everywhere.
Female 5: They’re shouting, they’re screaming, they’re being hit by bullets, they’re hitting the ground.
Female 6: And in that moment I literally thought, “This is how I die.”
Female 7: Everything changed then.
Female 8: And I just thought to myself, “This isn’t happening.”
Female 9: Every single story deserves to be heard.
Scott: I’m Scott Johnson, and this is What Was That Like
Scott
Your assignment is to figure out which past episodes each of those clips came from. It’s not easy! In fact, I posted this contest in the Facebook group a couple of weeks ago and we still don’t have any winners. What we’re doing is this – the first 3 people who get all nine correct get any item they want of What Was That Like merch – that includes t-shirts, hoodies, coffee mugs, all kinds of stuff. Those things can all be seen at WhatWasThatLike.com/merch.
To enter the contest, which is completely free by the way, you have to send me an email. The email address is Scott@WhatWasThatLike.com. And you just have to list, 1 through 9, the name of the episode where each of those audio clips came from.
So – if you think you’re up for it, put on your detective hat, or your researcher hat, or whatever hat you want to wear actually, and send in your entry by email.
And we have a fun question going in the Facebook group this week – the question is “If you had to eat only one food for the rest of your life, what would it be?” I knew my answer in about a half-second. And lots of other people chimed in too. If you want to answer that one and join in on all the other great discussions we have there, come on over to WhatWasThatLike.com/facebook.
Graphics for this episode were created by Bob Bretz. Full episode transcription was created by James Lai.
And now we’re about to hear this week’s Listener Story! Every episode ends this way – with a story sent in by a listener. You have a story, you know you do. Just record it on your phone, make it around 5-10 minutes, and email it to me – Scott@WhatWasThatLike.com.
This week’s story, which needs a content warning, is from a listener whose stepbrother was a pedophile.
Stay safe, and I’ll see you next time.
(Listener story)
In 2010, my stepbrother – I’ll call him Terry – was convicted of attempted rape, actual sexual intercourse with a person under the age of 11. It was his toddler daughter. He spent about 7 years in prison in New York State. Terry has mild mental retardation. Also, his grandfather was a convicted incestuous pedo. My family of origin is blended due to death and divorce with steps, halves, fulls, etc. So there were a lot of complicated feelings when Terry was arrested. It was pretty hard for us all to process. The family split into groups like haters, disbelievers, sympathizers, etc.
For a while, one of my sisters hated me because I couldn’t hate him. One of his full sisters thought she wanted to become his legal guardian but that feeling didn’t last for long. I felt deep sadness for the little girl. At the same time, I was one of the few siblings who didn’t disconnect from Terry. I wrote him letters in prison. Once I visited when I lived in Minnesota, I think I was his only visitor for his whole time in prison. Prison is its own weird world with its own rules and logic.
I had to strong arm Terry’s other full sister to help out when he got out of prison because I lived far – three hours away. She did step up with me pushing her. Terry calls me on the phone almost every day. We’re both in our late 60s now. I listen to him when he stresses out and try to remind him he will make it through whatever worries him. But for the most part, he’s like a 10 year old and I guess we’re friends. I’m in contact with the daughter, his victim. I see her every few months. Her guardian will not talk to her about anything in her past. She hears it from her babysitter and her stepbrothers. I’m afraid to say anything for fear of being shut out, but I maintain the connection with her guardian in case the daughter might need me for anything in the future.
I can’t put into words exactly why I couldn’t abandon my stepbrother. Maybe because his dad – my stepfather – and I didn’t have a good relationship until the end of his life, and I feel I have to watch over Terry for him. It’s almost like a mysterious grace that connects us. I’ve helped find him places to live – not an easy thing. We usually don’t talk about his past. I think I’ve sorted out everything I need to feel and I can’t put that in words either.